While I might be willing to grant that many elders/leaders probably start out with relatively good intentions, I suspect that the genuinely evil wolves (yes, I count MacDonald and Hybels as wolves, not fallen shepherds) are pretty good at picking out those who are most vulnerable to deception and temptation. humans decide who gets to be an apostle, the process of which is surely not unbiased. Too bad there is not a single human being on the planet that is qualified. When God leaves, it always becomes about something elseits amazing. Their goals are solidly biblical, and the show appears to be bearing fruit to the glory . Every believer has a part! Feb 14, 2022 . I appreciated your comment, John. They dont want you to have real relationships; the systems designed to prevent them. SiteSeer: I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. The pastor was grooming me to be an elder, made hints that I could take over for him someday. When I started diving into church history I was hoping and expecting to find an early church that looked like small home groups with decentralized leadership. (And our atheist friend shows humility, respect, and insight.) How does he know that? and all eternity will be jeopardized. Consider the following Scriptures: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors [POIMEN] and teachers (Ephesians 4:11). So I come here to learn, share solace and insights, and tell the odd bear joke. Harvest Bible Chapel issued a statement today: Pastor James MacDonald came upon a sleeping bear while walking in the back yard of his modest home today. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. Jenkins: Yeah, I did the original Christmas short solely as something for my church's Christmas Eve service [said church being Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago]. there was no way i could see that movie, even as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult. Hard to imagine that they would ever voluntarily fission into smaller groups. They were entitled to each other; thus, they will share in the fall from grace. If after that then the church must seek to cut off the relationship so that the sinner may be held account and that you may reach him towards restoring him. elastigirl: there was no way i could see that movie, even as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult. Jenkins is a former member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel, the Rolling Meadows-based church that fired James MacDonald its founder and senior pastor for comments . In all honesty, Dallas, since Mac and those around him, including you, took great delight in his being a very public ministry with great influence and far reach, this is a matter for public airing. Thats too deep to answer. Its repulsive that he has to be in fear of his kids kicked out of HCA. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. No more Moses behind a veil. I can understand your desire not to become a public figure. Hang on. When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now. You are loved!. Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. words like unsaved, which always has the connotation of someone to be wary of. temperate The Elephant Debt has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years. Good words, Fisher. You could be the pope for all I know. Good analogy, since Vietnamese restaurants tend to be small and committed to authenticity, without extorting the customer. That said, the bishops, priests, and deacons are supposed to be models of humility and servanthood. Look what that got them. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). The statements were given to Greg Bradshaw, who shared with only a few Elders. So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. In the last two years, 75% of the Executive Leadership team has left HBC. Apparently, many pastors have opted to preach the gospel for the wrong reasons .. to toss out the name of Jesus now and then while they work their deception to benefit themselves. Cut corners in the case of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and assorted others meant they decided it was OK to be a little wicked if a little good could come from it. Even during Christs life the disciples were weighing out who was most important and who would take the position above all the others. Crazy, huh? Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. Dallas Jenkins, I can only imagine what was said as explanation, particularly as my spouse (still blindly loyal) remained much longer than I, until our children put up a united appeal to leave. I was really hoping I would find that this was a much later development. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. There may be a general principle here, perhaps related to how many people you can know and relate to at a more than superficial level., And the cash flow in a church of 300 is not so large that it is likely to corrupt the leadership team.. It is a position of authority and responsibility. As the Lord continued to increase our congregation in depth and number, we outgrew the Rolling Meadows Campus. Wow. Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents. All who have enriched themselves in the name of serving God and on the backs of the working people are suspect, as that is certainly not what we were called to, nor a reflection of the sacrificial love of Jesus who came to serve. Oh, they couldnt get away with that completely. What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? They will return to their secrecy and self-dealing as a dog returns to his vomit, because power and money are that seductive and because if they could keep it a secret during the height of the Harvest scandal, no way will it be discovered at a less notorious church. Instead, the whole thing was a Yes Men (and Im not talking about the performance artist group) operation for the aggrandizement of James McDonald. Worse, I believe this shows arrogance on Dees part And believe you me Unless you give facts and verifiable information how do we know this is not part of a plan to cover things up? I am there; have been close to 8-years now. I just think some people do not care one tiny little bit about what the Lord said. Like the right procedures would have saved them the embarrassment. SiteSeer: This is so very true! Credibility has been diminished. And in January, Moody installed Mark Jobe as the 10 th President of the Moody Bible Institute, replacing Thornton who had served as interim president. Two thousand years after that exchange, the institutional church is still struggling to define truth. Denominations have been birthed with a different twist on what they perceive truth to be. Face it, Dallas, HBCs elders messed up BIG TIME by not reining in James a long time ago. However, he has never won . Your story matches what I hear from lots of people. In some cases these elders may be greater in years of living faithfully rather than simply age. Watch Video. Youre welcome. Thompson started questioning MacDonalds spending in 2006, when he saw the pastors home in Inverness featured in Chicago magazine. Not one. Its a modern proverb that in organizations characterized by power differentials, mistreatment flows downhill. Having experienced the unique life-changing work that God does when we interrupt our typical routines, our leaders began searching the Midwest for land suitable toward building a camp, or property with an existing camp. This moved the church into a season of transitional leadership for the next 27 months. Does that make you manly? Sad. The 7 elders below were given an opportunity to step down and avoid this lawsuit. As my friend says, suck it up buttercup., Max: I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys!, In all likelihood, He probably would be. Using second hand information is not of God. If so, that would be a good thing if we could get back to letting the Main Thing be the main thing. This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. On a side note, Im wondering if the wealth of knowledge that you and others like Jessica Hockett possesswondering if perhaps the two of you, along with a few other key people, have considered meeting and strategizing what could be some next steps going forward to help ensure that Gods people will never again be fleeced by the likes of James MacDonald, Luke MacDonald, Rick Donald, Jeff Donaldson, and, if it comes down to it, Donald Duck. I presume this is because he has a much bigger platform, but if that is not the reason, I am open to hear. Id say largely because the leaders themselves have been told to believe this. Its life giving. Truth (the Word) + The Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit) = Revealed Truth. Heres hoping quotes work the same here as many other onlline sites. You have my phone number,. That movie became a kind of a shibboleth at our church when it came out. He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. He is currently Director of Media at Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago, where he directed the award-winning short film "The Ride" and is currently developing multiple feature films. Give them what they want in the present, and they wont care about the past. The fact that the gospel according to Luke was accepted early seems to give credibility to Paul. Sadly, I was guilty of the same in my day, taking the word of the pastor that those who left us were never one of us. I have personally seen that place and I want no one to go there. You were part of promoting that brand, right? Hours . Scary to think that unfaithful leaders can so easily jump from one pond to another. And I know I post too much. Dallas, you helped run an organization that prospered because of its public image which you helped create. Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. Once credibility is lost, it is hard to regain. You will find that many commenters have been on similar journeys, who share stories of pain and disillusionment with their church experiences. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? The Chosen is similar to Risen, the excellent faith -based film that . This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. Harvest launched a radio show; founded a Christian school with over 700 students; built its own retreat center; produced feature-length films; wrote its own worship songs; and created its own. No announcement, no warning, just Have something I want you to see. Then suddenly Boom, there it was on the screen. So at least in theory there are checks and balances. I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. It is the internal nagging I have following Dees post on Friday about JD Hall and Braxton Caner. We the elders fully support him in everything he does. Once fear grasps and security is sought, the ability and desire to do the right thing and think critically becomes nearly impossible when it means you too could be hurt or humbled. They are increasing in excellence in academics and athletics, and all that God has in store for the next chapter. Anyone reading the title of this weeks article might very well say, Its Greek to me, and would be right! not quick-tempered (Amy, thanks for the clarification on Amy/Lauren). Have seen the exact same thing. Its not like a plurality of elders guarantees anything, or multiple pastors is anything special. Harvest Bible Church is a non-denominational, non-charismatic, evangelical Protestant church located in Northwest Houston in the Cypress community. As a Christian, how could they do otherwise? Remnant, youre welcome! But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). They will now export it across the US. Ill follow up with some details later. Looking forward to the recording of a worship night on Thursday, March 2. And after a brief pause in this mission, Harvest is returning to planting more and better churches by raising up more and better Christian leaders across Chicagoland, America, and around the world. Finally, you deactivated your Twitter account a week ago. There has been financial fraud committed by Harvest and its leaders. If the elders arent spiritual men, consider another church. So, so much we dont know. Choose from among you seven men with good reputations, men of godly character and moral integrity, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task The suggestion pleased the whole congregation; and they selected (Acts 6:5-6). I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. Their influence will spread exponentially once decentralized. A shepherd does not own the sheep, but a hireling, responsible to the true owner for seeing after them, protecting them, helping them to make their way to new pastures and safe water when the old become bare. to take stock in ones view, and have confidence in it, is personal responsibility. im so glad i resisted & refused all the pressure the christian community put on everyone concerning that film. And we are in the Lent season. one who rules his own house well I LOVED what I believed that Harvest Bible Chapel wasa vibrant church that existed to bring glory to Jesus Christ. what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. (In less than a year, he has doubled attendance.) Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. Harvest Bible Chapel has fired its founder and senior pastor James MacDonald following years of controversial behavior, financial scandal and allegations of bullying and intimidation. In fact, Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). Identity, faith, sexuality, and gender--come learn what God's Word says about these topics in light of our current culture. they also have worthy things to say which others benefit from. Jesus held onto me and he will hold onto you. To answer your point about making the jump. Perhaps its the side deals as well. Someday Ill be big enough so you cant hit me Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. We do use the facility a lot during the week and make it available for local schools to use. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school, is not only true, but lacks the other fact that those of us employees that DID speak up about MANY things, were gaslighted and slandered. Certainly! In fact, not saying something wouldve been considered enabling and a betrayal of those being hurt.. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. That meant that he used smoke and mirrors to make MacDonald and his minions appear not to be incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean. Whew! In preparation for the milestone anniversary of 30 years, it seemed fitting to host all our campuses together for Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Sears Centre Arena. I firmly believe we are experiencing another reformation. GreekEpigraph: Thats why Im asking LLS (and Ken/Tweed, if he wants) how do these worship men, not God structures ever have any mechanisms at all to keep from going wildly off the rails? Lol. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. Your comments about pastor so and so were so, er, clever! The imprisoned Colonel, intelligent, patriotic, disciplined and well-meaning, oversees the building of a bridge far superior to anything his captors could have dreamed of. He should never again have a say in how people live their lives. And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came so, for sensible folks (like you and me) who actually remember the simple meaning of the gospel (the bridge built between us and God so we can know each other in real time, every day), it is only logical to assume Paul is no more unique than all the others who are part of the enormous harvest mentioned in the NT. Further, a cental message of the Bible, as I learned over many, many years, is that mankind is fallen, and religious leaders/system are fallen, in many ways more fallen than the secular/hunanistic world that so many religous leaders rail against. They stated goal is to also expose hypocrisy and arrogance. Vague and almost never supported accusations, e.g., the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the commentshere is always, in my experience, just a smear from someone whos actually rather cowardly and just looking to defame. We are Harvest a vertical church in two locations in West Michigan (Spring Lake. Most were started by a mere man who was convinced that his mission had more of a corner on the Truth than the rest. This is no different then the very worst of false teachers in 2019. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Ephesians 5:11). Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. Hey, if you look at JMACs Instagram he has a pic from fall of 2018 praising Mark Driscolls new book? whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. Harvest Bible Chapel We're here to glorify God through the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20). Funny how highly institutional types value the written word of God, yet despise the teaching of godly elders that is available to one and all in countless books written through the ages. I really cant come up with a legitimate reason for why these Pastors and Elders are continuing to conceal the truth while realizing that doing so will result in decades of further abuse. It is atrocious that he is still able to live the life and spend the money as if nothing untoward ever happened. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). Rescuing those who have ears to hear is the best any of us can do. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. PJ: Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Your support is what helps bring hope, and is a large part of the reason I chose to comment here at TWW. Jesus said that you cannot serve both Him and Mammon. You have not fully recognized the level of evil that you eagerly participated in in order to promote yourself riding on the coattails of a famous narcissist and personally enrich yourself unrighteously with tithes that the New Testament does not even teach. fear of the evil, scary worldly world. I dont see how were in disagreement, at least in terms of practical application. One church on six campuses serving together in this purpose: to glorify God and fulfill the Great Commission! you have understanding and knowledge and a unique perspective that is valuable. Harvest Bible Chapel is an evangelical Christian megachurch in Rolling Meadows, Illinois. He moved to Plano. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. It feels like Im eaten away inside. The chief interest of Port Royal lies rather in the silent witness which through two and a half centuries she has borne to the naval activities of the island of Jamaica, and in a measure to those of the British fleets which have from time to time visited these waters, than in any part which she has played in the internal domestic development of . And particularly sad to see younger church folks not benefiting from the council of senior saints. Thank you for your insights. God looks lovingly upon your confusion and pain, and wants nothing more than for you to find and know him as he truly is, apart from all of the hypocrisy and falsity that parades as the institutional church. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: So, so much we dont know. Or get your own blog and allow comments to your hearts content. Ive felt sins breakers dashing, Watch a Sermon. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? Remember when we videotaped us all playing The Name Game? Consider the following Scriptures: For a bishop [EPISKOPOS] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money. (Titus 1:7), Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops [EPISKOPOS] and deacons (Philippians 1:1). Power provides for itself and money and sex. You see, the symbolic meaning of harvest in Scripture encompasses two main areas: God's provision for us and God's blessing for others. These qualifications must be met if one is to be a pastor for the flock of God. Whether its a yes-man or someone the lead guy has dirt on, its easy enough for these types to have a handful in pocket. Ive heard the thunder roll. 7,646 were here. None of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup. Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. Its actually pretty simple to pick out the false ones. They are needles in the haystack, rare and endangered species, last of the Mohicans so I will cheer them on rather than applauding those who masquerade as angels of light. This helped to hit the revenue target and qualify for Executive bonuses.. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? Now this is a dichotomy because we are speaking about faith because we cannot know all facts of God, but what is done on this earth is grounded in facts and with witnesses. husband of one wife Are we any better? a Christian/inspirational filmmaker, and former Director of Visual Media and member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel . There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. 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